#57 How To Start Swinging, How It Improves Your Relationship & Red Flags You Must Know With Dan & Lacy From The Swing Nation

Have you ever been curious about what the swinger lifestyle might be like? Today we sit down with Dan and Lacy from The Swing Nation Podcast to answer all your swinger-related questions. Tune in as we discuss everything, from figuring out whether the swinger lifestyle is right for you to the impact it could have on your relationship.

Discover what drew Dan and Lacy to the lifestyle, their prior experiences with monogamy, and what they have learned from navigating this new world together. We discuss some of the best tips for exploring the swinger lifestyle, especially if you’re a beginner, before examining how to deal with jealousy, and why honest communication is essential! You’ll also learn how to recognize signs that swinging might be right for you, along with red flags you need to know about. Tune in for a deep dive into the swinging community from experts Dan and Lacy!

Key Points From This Episode:

• Introducing Dan and Lacy from the Swing Nation Podcast.
• How Dan and Lacy found themselves involved in the swinger lifestyle together.
• Their experience with monogamous relationships and why they prefer the swinger lifestyle.
• Issues they encountered when they first started dating as swingers.
• Tips and advice on embarking on a journey of non-monogamy together.
• The benefits of taking it slow when you first start exploring the swinger lifestyle.
• How to recognize green flags that swinging might be right for you.
• Why insecurity and jealousy are normal and why good communication is essential.
• How swinging has benefited their relationship and communication.
• A breakdown of Dan and Lacy’s boundaries and how they set them.
• The value of having a list of rules when you’re starting out.
• Important red flags you should be aware of.
• Understanding compersion; the happiness you feel when your partner is intimate with others.
• How non-monogamy could change throughout your life and relationship.
• What led to them becoming prominent swinger influencers and educators.
• The type of events that Dan and Lacy host and how to join their Discord community.

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Transcript

D: I think swingers lifestyle people have such a higher level of communication.

SJ: I was going to ask that. Do you think it’s helped you guys as a couple to communicate better?

L: Oh, for sure. Also, like, personal. Me personally, it’s helped me learn my own self and what triggers me, what doesn’t trigger me. I’d be a 100%, I’ve never had a relationship where I could look at the other person and just truly communicate my feelings and know that my feelings are accepted and valid.”

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:33] SJ: This is The Bad Girls Bible Podcast. I’m your host, Sean Jameson, and this is the place where I interview experts and professionals and everyone in between to teach you how to dramatically improve your relationships and have more enjoyable sex more often. If you’re not already subscribed to The Bad Girls Bible Podcast, you just need to open your podcast app, search for Bad Girls Bible, and hit that subscribe button, so you get the latest episodes delivered straight to you the moment they are released.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:05] SJ: Hey, guys. Today I’m talking to Dan and Lacy. They are the hosts of The Swing Nation Podcast, a podcast by swingers for swingers. On their podcast, they shed a positive light on the underground world of swinging and the lifestyle. They also push back against the negative stigmas associated with it. They give an insider’s perspective on what it’s like to be in a consensual non-monogamous relationship in the 21^st century. Dan, Lacy, thanks so much for coming on the show.

[0:01:34] D: Thanks for having us. We’re happy to be here.

[0:01:35] L: Hello. How are you?

[0:01:37] SJ: I’m good. I’d love to start off with a little bit about you guys, your backgrounds, maybe how you met and then how you find your way to the lifestyle.

[0:01:46] D: Perfect. I’ll let you start, Lacy.

[0:01:48] L: I was a single female. I had been married, got divorced and was in quite a few long-term relationships. I found myself just wanting to explore my sexuality and not necessarily be in a committed relationship. I started looking up the swinging and the lifestyle and found myself on swinging websites as a unicorn, which is a single female. I did that for a few years and I ran across this guy’s profile, who I’d never seen before. He was in my town. We were the same age, he was handsome. I messaged him and that was Dan, and that was how we met. We actually met on a swinging website. Do you want to tell them how you got to that website?

[0:02:38] D: Very similar story. I was in a long-term monogamous relationship, 13 years. Did the marriage, the white picket fence and all that stuff. Didn’t work out for me. After I got divorced, I was of the mindset that I’d given up on love and marriage. I tried to follow the things that you’re supposed to do as a young adult growing up in America and it just didn’t work out for me. My whole world came crashing down. I was dating around, very much with the mindset that I’m not going to settle down. I’m not going to get married. I’m just not going to do that again. I didn’t want to deal with the heartbreak and the disappointment and stuff.

Yeah, so I was dating a girl and she was – it turned out that her and her ex-husband were swingers and in the lifestyle. I had heard about it and knew basics about it, but I didn’t really realized it was a thing, and there was websites and there was all these dating apps and stuff like that. Yeah, I got on one of those websites and I was actually traveling for work and Lacy messaged me. I remember thinking like, “There’s no way this is a real person. This is somebody – This is a dude that’s trying to get dick pics, or something like that. This is not a real –”

[0:03:40] SJ: Catfishing.

[0:03:41] L: Yeah.

[0:03:41] D: Right. This is not. Then, she showed up to my hotel room later that night and was very real. We’ve been basically inseparable since.

[0:03:49] L: Yeah. He very much did not want a relationship, but I saw something special in him. I didn’t really want a relationship either, but there was something about him that was different. We lived 500 miles apart, but somehow, I convinced him to have a long-distance relationship. We started this journey. We attempted to be completely open. No rules. We’re just going to have fun. That wasn’t quite as easy as we thought it was going to be, but somehow, we managed to figure this out and became a couple in the lifestyle and we dated, we got engaged and then ultimately, got married. We stayed long distance. Even after we got married, we’ve been in the same household now for almost two years.

Yeah, that’s basically our story as to how we ended up together and in the lifestyle. It was never that we weren’t going to be swingers. We always knew that that was something that we wanted to do together.

[0:04:53] SJ: Awesome. One of the things you mentioned was that you both tried, I guess, this white picket fence, a house, this normal monogamous relationship. Did you find it psychologically difficult to try and understand yourselves, to try and push back against what maybe society directly-indirectly says, this is what’s normal? Actually, you guys want to maybe do something different. Was there a tough period there?

[0:05:21] D: Me personally, I knew I wasn’t good at monogamous relationships. I guess, when I knew I wasn’t good at it, I didn’t really even know there was an alternative. It wasn’t like, “Oh, I suck at monogamy. Let me go try non-monogamy.” I didn’t really even know non-monogamy existed. Then I just stumbled across it. Then once I stumbled across it and figured out the community and started going to events and clubs and started experiencing it, I was like, “Oh, my goodness. There is another way that you can live your life and you can be happy and you can be in a relationship and still go out and explore your sexuality. Could still go out and do things, like have group sex.” I was like, you can do this and still be in a committed, loving relationship. Why did I not know this? You know what I mean?

It wasn’t like, it was a purpose. Like, this didn’t work, so I’m going to try this thing. It was, this didn’t work, and then I stumbled into this. I was like, wow, this is amazing. Why is this a secret? You know what I mean? That was what happened for me. What about you, Lacy?

[0:06:20] L: Well, I mean, both in my marriage, I was monogamous the entire time. It wasn’t until later on in other relationships that I explored outside of it and started dating around. I just knew that I can be monogamous if I really wanted to. It’s not natural for me. I enjoy the non-monogamous aspect very much more. It was nice to find a community that we could do it safely and together in.

[0:06:50] SJ: When you started dating at first, the fact that you were both already involved in the lifestyle, do you think that helped, instead of maybe just one partner being involved, or neither of you, and then figuring out the lifestyle together?

[0:07:04] L: I think it helped, because we were open from the day we met. We were telling each other stories and about things that we were doing. I think that helped. I think we had false – what’s the what I’m looking for? We thought we would be better at it than we were. Because we were already swingers, we went into it with a mindset of like, we’ve got this. This is easy. We’ll have no issues being swingers. When in fact, it was a little bit harder than we anticipated.

[0:07:32] SJ: What kind of issues? What kind of stumbling blocks did you hit?

[0:07:34] D: When we first met and started dating, like Lacy said, we were 500 miles apart. Because we were both swingers at the time, we basically were like, “Hey, when we’re together, we’re together. But when we’re apart, do your own thing. You can do whatever you want,” was how we initially approached it. 

In theory, that sounds good. But in reality, when you’re falling in love with somebody, you’re talking to them on the phone every day and then they text you and say, “Hey, I’m not going to be available this afternoon, because I’m going to be with somebody else,” that puts you through a roller coaster of emotions. Because we were apart so much, we didn’t, I guess, really understand where the rules and the boundaries were. I was a little better at it than Lacy was, but I think she was worried that, “He’s on this date with another girl. What’s going to stop him? She lives locally to him. What’s going to stop him from falling in love with her and then dumping me?”

I had similar worries and security and stuff like that. It took us a while to navigate, is playing separately, is dating separately something we’re going to be able to do and while we’re together in a relationship?

[0:08:36] L: Yeah. This is something we had the foundation built, because we had just met. Most people that are married for an extended period of time and then decide to be swingers, they’ve been together for an extended amount of time. They know that each other – they love each other, they have trust, and we hadn’t built that yet. That made it a little bit difficult.

[0:08:56] SJ: If you are married couple, or maybe a monogamous couple, you’re interested in getting involved in the lifestyle as, I guess, experts, do you have any tips for that first step, like, maybe having a discussion, a suggestion?

[0:09:11] L: Yeah, definitely talking to each other. I think the lifestyle is such a broad term and there’s so much out there. Doing research together, listening to podcasts, going online, looking at research and then coming back and talking about the things that you’re finding, I think, is really the first step. Because the way one couple swings may be completely different than what you’re looking for. There’s a ton of resources out there. If you look for them, you have to go and find them. I think, just exploring all of that, coming back together and talking about what you read, or saw, and just working through that is probably the first step for me. What would you think?

[0:09:51] D: Yeah. No, I agree. I think, we get asked all the time like, how do I talk to my partner about swinging, or non-monogamy and stuff like that? We always take their approach that don’t make it about you, right? Don’t say, “I want to be a swinger, because I want to go have sex with other people, or multiple people and stuff like that.” Really, if you want to take this journey into non-monogamy, it should be something that you’re doing together to explore each other’s fantasies, to improve your relationship, to improve your sex life. Not really, I want to do this, because I want to go do, be with somebody else.

If you take that approach with your partner, it’s going to be very, very off-putting to them and you’re going to have trouble. I really think you have to have a solid foundation. You have to be in the rock-solid relationship. You have to have trust. You have to have all those things. If you meet couples, unfortunately, sometimes that are struggling in their own relationship and they think that going out and swinging is a good idea, that’s going to fix their relationship, those couples are very going to quickly learn, it’s going to have the opposite effect.

I always say like, if you become a swinger because you want to fix your relationship, that’s almost like, having a baby to try to save your marriage. It’s an awful idea. It’s going to expose all the cracks and you’re going to probably wish you never did it. If you are in a rock-solid relationship and you just have fantasies that you want to explore, I think non-monogamy and swinging could be great for you.

[0:11:06] SJ: Awesome. What would be the next step then? Let’s say, you just want to have yourself as a couple, you want to perhaps, swing with another couple. Let’s just say, that scenario. Would you advise? Do people go on a website? Do they go on an app? Do they talk to their friends?

[0:11:26] L: Yeah. There’s a lot of avenues that you can take to do that. I would suggest not rushing into it, because once you’ve done that, you can’t really put it back in. There is a million different steps between A and Z. My suggestion would be, get on a website. There’s a ton to choose from, a lot of them have free links. You can explore them without investing a lot of money, or just going to a swingers club. I think people think that when you walk through the doors of a swingers club, you have to swing, or you have to participate and you don’t. You can just go and watch. Take it all in. Those are a lot of good steps that you can see and be immersed in the lifestyle, without actually doing anything. 

You could just dance with someone and then come back home that night and talk to your partner about it. Did it turn you on when you saw your wife dancing with someone? Did it turn you off? Those are the conversations that you need to have. Going super slow like that, if that turns you off when you see your wife dancing with another man, you’re probably going to be really turned off when you see her having sex with someone. Taking baby steps.

[0:12:38] SJ: That’s a good sign.

[0:12:39] L: Yeah. I mean, taking baby steps prevents that. That would be my suggestion.

[0:12:44] D: Yeah. We always talk about swinging is like learning to swim. It’s better to weigh it in from the shallow end and then get out into the deep end and start swimming. There’s people that can jump off the boat into the deep end and just start swimming and it works for them, but there’s also people that do that and drown. It always is the best course of action to take baby steps, like Lacy’s talking about.

There’s a million way. I mean, you can get on an app, meet a couple, go on a date with them and go out dancing with them, go to a swingers club. I mean, there’s a million different ways that you can do that without necessarily jumping into a full swap situation. Now, if you start doing those things and you realize like, “Hey, this is really fun and I like this,” then yeah, go for it. I think a lot of people, I think when they first start swinging, they just feel pressure to do it.

[0:13:26] L: Yeah. I think they put the pressure on themselves. I don’t feel there’s pressure from other people. I feel like, it’s internal pressure that they put on themselves.

[0:13:33] D: I would agree. Yeah.

[0:13:35] SJ: As there, I guess, as you said, waiting in from the shallow end, are there any green flags, I guess, people should look for a clear obvious sign that, hey, this seems working, seems to be working. Let’s maybe go a little bit deeper. Besides just –

[0:13:52] L: Communicating with your partner throughout the whole process, that is your green flag. If you’re not rushing into anything, if things feel natural and they don’t feel forced, that is your green flag. If you go to a club and your wife’s dancing and she makes out with someone and that makes – that turned you on, that is your green flag. That’s the whole benefit of going slow and not rushing into anything is you get to experience those things.

A full swap with a couple is super-hot, but there’s a lot of things before that that you can do that are equally as hot. Watching someone else be into your wife and think he’s pretty and her feeling, like the emotions of being flirted with, that in itself is super-hot. I think people forget that there’s so many other things other than sex in the lifestyle that can be a turn on and a green flag.

[0:14:44] D: Yeah, I would agree. The green flag is no red flags. If you’re not going home and getting in a fight, because you’re partner’s jealous that you were dancing with somebody, if you’re not having insecurities, if you’re not having arguments, if it’s not bringing up feelings of unrest with you, then that’s the green flag. Now, if you do have those issues, if there are insecurities and jealousies and those things, I would almost expect those things to happen.

[0:15:08] L: You probably will have those.

[0:15:09] D: At some point in time, something’s going to happen and it’s going to make you jealous. It’s going to make you insecure. The answer is, you go back, you have a conversation, you say, “Hey, this made me feel this way. Why did it make me feel this way?” When we’ve dealt with that stuff, a lot of times we realize, we want to blame the other couple, or the other person and be like, “Oh, well, they crossed my boundary, or they did this, or they were too pushy.”

A lot of times what it ends up is you’re dealing with your own insecurities, right? I know when we’ve had that problem, it’s likely because, man, that dude had six-pack abs and giant muscles and Lacy was clearly super into him. I don’t have those things. Why am I feeling this way? You know what I mean? It’s like, well, Dan, if it makes you feel that way, maybe you need to go to the gym more. You know, I mean, that might be the answer. It’s not this dude’s fault, because he’s jacked, you know what I mean? Similar things for Lacy. You’re going to have to go through that and you’re going to have to be an adult and realize like, oh, some of these insecurities are on me and it’s not the other person’s fault. It’s not non-monogamy’s fault, or swinging’s fault. This is just insecurities that I have that I have to find coping mechanisms for, so that we can continue on this journey.

[0:16:11] L: That’s an ongoing. We still, several years into this, we still deal with that daily and have to remind – Not daily, but occasionally. We have to remind ourselves that it’s not something that you just like, one day wake up and you never feel insecure, or you never feel jealous again. It happens throughout your journey and you just have to deal with it and communicate. Sometimes for me, just even saying it out loud is enough. There’s not really anything that we need to do. We can’t –

[0:16:39] D: Well, sometimes you realize how ridiculous you’d be. Just by saying it out loud, you’re like, “Oh, why do I feel this way?” Because of this. You’re like, “Well, that sounds stupid.”

[0:16:46] L: Yeah. But saying it and being validated, like, “I get why you’re feeling that way, but I love you. I love the way you look and I wouldn’t change.” Just having someone validate your feelings for me makes me feel better.

[0:17:01] SJ: I think that’s great to hear. Some jealousy is normal, even if you’ve been doing this for years and years.

[0:17:07] L: Yeah. I mean, jealousy is just a feeling. It’s just an emotion. It’s how you deal with that jealousy. If you throw a fit and make a scene and cause the night to end for everyone, that’s obviously not a good way to deal with it. If you recognize, “Hey, this made me feel that jealous,” and you go back to your partner and you communicate, “Hey, when you did this, I felt this way.” Then we could determine why you felt that way. That is a healthy and normal way to deal with jealousy. Also, next time when you feel that way, you’re going to recognize that and not act on that jealousy, because you’re aware of your feelings.

[0:17:43] D: Yeah, it is weird. I think people act like jealousy is this bad emotion that you’re never supposed to experience or feel. But in a lot of ways, I mean, it’s the same as being sad, or being angry. It’s just an emotion that you feel. Like being sad and angry, sometimes it doesn’t make sense, right? Sometimes we get sad and we’re crying, because we’re watching a silly movie and you’re like, “I don’t even know why I’m crying and so sad right now.” Jealousy’s the same thing. You don’t know what’s going to trigger it. Sometimes it’s just the way he kissed her made me jealous. I’ve seen her kiss a 100 dudes, but just for whatever reason today, the way that dude kissed her, sparked something inside of me that made me jealous.

It can be pet names. Like, oh, dude just called her babe, or hon, then she smiled and lit up and it’s like, oh, man. That just hit something inside of me weird. Yeah, talking through it and saying, “Hey, this is how it made me feel and this is why.” Her responding to that and either validating it, or reassuring you that, “Okay, I understand that you felt that way. But hey, I just did it because of this. It wasn’t really a big deal.” Whatever the case may be, and working through that ways, there’s a lot of benefits to that. I mean, I think swingers, lifestyle people have such a higher level of communication than –

[0:18:45] SJ: I was going to ask that. Do you think it’s helped you guys as a couple to communicate better?

[0:18:48] L: Oh, for sure. Also, personal, like me personally, it’s helped me learn my own self and what triggers me, what doesn’t trigger me. 100%, I’ve never had a relationship where I could look at the other person and just truly communicate my feelings and know that my feelings are accepted and valid.

[0:19:08] D: Yeah. I can think back to when I was monogamous, and when you feel those feelings of jealousy, or insecurity, you’re almost taught like, that’s good, right?

[0:19:17] L: Yeah. Like, you’re supposed to –

[0:19:18] D: Don’t look at her, and that’s normal.

[0:19:20] SJ: Yeah. You’re the man to a woman.

[0:19:21] D: Yeah. Don’t look at my wife. Get away. That’s okay, and that’s like, that means you love her because you’re being jealous and over-protective. Now in the relationship that we’re in, and we look back on that and we’re almost like, why is that okay? Why do we ever –

[0:19:34] SJ: It’s immature.

[0:19:35] D: – do that? Yeah. In monogamy, a lot of that is almost celebrated in ways. That’s how you show your love is when you get jealous and mad and want to find a dude, because he hit on your girlfriend, or whatever. It definitely is a different mindset and a different way of approaching it. I do think it’s healthier to work through those feelings and emotions. Being in the lifestyle almost forces you to have to do that, if you want to continue in it. Where in monogamy, you can hide those feelings, or bury those feelings and maybe not even talk about them.

[0:20:03] SJ: You talked about boundaries and rules earlier. Do you have a strategy, or a way you guys come up with having boundaries?

[0:20:11] L: Ours are pretty easy now. Our boundaries are communication through group messaging. If we are communicating with a couple, or anyone for that matter, we do it in a group text, basically. Protection, always. We always use condoms. Then same room. We’re always together when we’re swinging. We do everything. We say same room, but it’s really same roof. Not always are we right next to each other, but we’re in the same –

[0:20:38] D: Same house. Same party. We like to be –

[0:20:39] L: Yeah, same party. Yeah, same area. But that’s changed over the years. In the beginning, there was a lot more boundaries and a lot of couples that are just starting out, that’s pretty common for them to have a laundry list of boundaries. Then as they get more comfortable in the lifestyle, those slowly, the list shortens. Truth be told, that if something was bothering me that bad, like kissing, for instance, if seeing him make out with a girl intimately is something that really triggers me, that would need to be a boundary that we set. Because that’s just going to cause issues, right? That’s what the boundaries are there for is to protect us. At this point, that’s really what our boundaries are.

[0:21:24] D: Yeah, it’s funny. At least he was saying, newer couples in the lifestyle are always going to have a laundry list of rules. The funny thing is like, I think we’re at that point now, we can ask a couple like, “Oh, what are your rules and boundaries?” When they start listing them off, you say, “Oh.” You can tell like, “You guys haven’t been in the lifestyle very long, because you just gave me a list of 100 things.” But that’s completely okay, and it’s completely normal.

It’s funny, and to talk about, like a lot of couples when they’re new, they have that no kissing rule, right? Which seems silly that, okay, you can have sex, intercourse, penetrative sex with my wife, but don’t kiss her, you know what I mean? For some couples, just kissing is just too intimate and they’re just not comfortable. It makes them insecure and jealous, or whatever the case may be, so they start out with that no kissing rule. Now, most people –

[0:22:05] L: Drop it.

[0:22:06] D: – yeah, with that rule and some going away eventually, because they feel more comfortable. Once you’re in the lifestyle for a while and you realize that, “Wow, my partner can do all these things,” and then we can go home and everything’s normal. Actually, usually everything’s better. We’re usually having better sex after, because we’re talking about the things we saw and did and it gets us turned on, and it makes us happy. The more you engulf yourself and experience things, I think the more you open up to new experiences.

[0:22:31] SJ: Is it still advisable though to maybe have a laundry list of rules, if you’re just getting started to cover every possible scenario?

[0:22:39] L: I think so. Because you don’t know what you don’t know. I mean, if you think that kissing is going to bother you, make that a boundary. If you think oral is too intimate, do that. I mean, I think that’s standard, because you have to figure it out. When you meet a couple that says, “We have no rules. Everything’s on the table.” That is a red flag. That is a red flag. That means that they probably have not had that conversation. They’re probably not communicating.

It’s also important to go over someone’s rules and boundaries prior to being naked and getting ready to basically have sex, which we are bad about that, too. We were just on vacation last week, and I did not ask what we got. I asked the person, what is okay, what’s not? They said, everything. I was like, “Oh, no. Here we are, half naked.” I mean, you really should communicate that prior to even engaging. Or once you realize there’s a connection and you maybe want to take it to the next level, that’s when you need to have those conversations, which it can be embarrassing to be like, “Hey, okay, let’s pause this hot, sexy make out session that we’re having, or dancing on a dance floor. Let’s pause and talk about condoms. Let’s pause and talk about when was your last STD test.”

It’s not necessarily sexy and fun to have those conversations, but we found that when we do that, it saves us in the long run. Because usually, if there’s ever an issue or a problem, it’s because we did not communicate our boundaries to the other person and they didn’t communicate theirs to ours. If someone steps over a boundary, it’s because they don’t have any idea that that boundary was there.

[0:24:19] SJ: You mentioned like, this is one of the red flags and other couples, them having no boundaries. Are there other red flags, maybe people getting into the lifestyle should just be aware of so they don’t have a bad experience?

[0:24:32] L: Overindulging. When somebody needs a ton of alcohol, or drugs, or whatever to participate. Usually, let’s say, if the wife needs to get hammered to do this, you wonder, is the husband talking her into this?

[0:24:47] SJ: Maybe she’s a people pleaser. She just wants to do it for him.

[0:24:50] L: Yeah. Yeah, you want to make sure that they’re both there. They both want to be there. We’ve had when couples get a little tipsy, they start fighting. They start bringing up, well, somebody cheated on somebody. That’s a huge red flag.

[0:25:02] D: We’re just doing this, because this motherfucker cheated on me.

[0:25:05] L: Yeah. Yeah. That’s like, exit, right? We’re getting out of here.

[0:25:08] SJ: I mean, it’s a good story, maybe. It’s a good a story, but yeah. 

[0:25:11] L: It is. Yeah, it is. But we’re not – Yeah, what other red flags?

[0:25:15] D: When couples do the whole tit for tat thing like, “Oh, you’ve kissed two girls. Now I need to kiss two girls.” You see some of that sometimes, that’s a little bit of a turn off and a red flag.”

[0:25:25] SJ: It’s a scorecard for your relationship.

[0:25:27] D: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[0:25:28] L: Some people are just naturally that way. It’s a turn off for us. I’m trying to think of any other red flags.

[0:25:35] D: They start negative comments. If you hear them say like, putting out negative comments about their partner like, “Oh. Well, yeah. She can be bitchy sometime.” Or if they start negating each other, it’s like, oh, man.

[0:25:46] L: Or, if they have no connection at all. We like to see couples that are into each other. We like to see couples that are kissing, that are dancing, that are genuinely love each other and are there to enhance what they already have. You see couples that are basically friends that are not really – 

[0:26:04] D: Walk through the door and go two different directions.

[0:26:05] L: Yeah. Or not really engaged.

[0:26:06] D: It’s like, oh, no.

[0:26:08] L: To me, that’s a turn off. I want you to be into each other. I want this to be about you as a team, you as together. That can be a red flag for me.

[0:26:17] D: There’s a bunch. We have a whole podcast episode on that.

[0:26:19] L: Do we? Oh, yeah, I don’t even remember.

[0:26:21] SJ: We’ll try to put that on the show notes.

[0:26:23] L: Okay. Awesome.

[0:26:24] SJ: I think you make a good point, though, about, I guess it’s enthusiasm for the situation. It’s probably the number one tip I have. People always ask me, blow job tips, hand job tips, anal sex, whatever. It turns out that it’s mostly if you’re with an enthusiastic partner, who actually wants to be with you, it’s probably the hardest thing you can possibly do.

[0:26:46] D: A 100%. Yeah. If somebody wants to be there and is enthusiastically participating, that’s when you’re going to have a good time.

[0:26:52] SJ: Would you say, you mentioned it previously that it really has improved your sex life, also improved your intimacy together?

[0:27:00] D: Yeah. No, I think the word we use, compersion is something you’re going to hear a lot about, which is seeing your partner be pleasured. Getting joy from seeing your partner experience joy and pleasure. That’s the real thing. It’s weird. I think a lot of people don’t realize it, but when you’re seeing somebody have sex with your partner and they’re clearly enjoying themselves, that can be a super turn on for people. I think it’s going to be one of two things. You’re either going to experience that compersion, or you’re not. If you do experience it, it can be a very exciting thing. It’s something you don’t, you probably haven’t experienced before. I think it is another level of intimacy that a lot of people don’t get to experience.

[0:27:38] L: Just coming back. We just came back from Jamaica. We were there for a week at a swingers resort and just coming home off of that, you’re almost a high talking about and reliving those experiences. To me, I feel like, our sex life just gets better when we get home. Cause we’re still thinking about all those super sexy things and talking about it. I’m thinking about how hot it was when I saw him doing certain things. I don’t know, it just amps it up a little. We already have great sex. We are pretty active just on a normal daily basis. When you come off of something like that, I just feel like, it just adds an extra level of sexiness.

[0:28:26] SJ: With non-monogamy, all different versions and the – including the lifestyle, do you find that it’s a lifelong thing with couples, or is it something people dip in and out of, maybe they tried for a few years, they even enjoy it, and then they just lose interest?

[0:28:43] D: I think it can be both a little bit. You definitely go through seasons of your life. I think there’s people that go through medical things where they have to step back from the lifestyle and can’t participate. When women go through pregnancies, often, a couple will step back from the lifestyle for a while. This can be time-consuming. If you have little kids, if you have work obligations, there’s time where you might have to put the lifestyle and swinging and that thing on a back burner. That being said, we’ve been to events. We’ve been the HEDO. We’ve been to bliss cruises and we’ve seen couples in their 80s, pushing 90 that are out there on the dance floor, they’re in little slutty outfits.

[0:29:19] SJ: Something to aspire to.

[0:29:20] D: They’re in playrooms having sex at 80 something years old. They’re swinging.

[0:29:26] L: We’re like, we hope that’s us.

[0:29:28] D: Swapping. Yeah, I don’t think there’s a reason you have to stop. We get asked that question all the time. “Well, what are you guys – when are you guys going to stop swinging? When are you guys going to get too old?” It’s like, I hope never. I hope never, you know what I mean? But it could happen. I think that we could have a medical situation. Who knows what could happen? But I don’t know. For me, when you see that couple in their 80s, dance floor, dress to the nines and they’re rubbing and kissing on each other and they just have that aura about them, that these are two people that are intimately in love and still have amazing sexual chemistry, like, who doesn’t want that in their relationship?

[0:30:03] L: I hope that, okay, let’s say that we don’t swing as often as we do currently. Maybe it just, if it happens, it happens and it’s every so often, I would like to still be a part of the lifestyle. Because to me, lifestyle people and myself, parties and some of that are the funniest people I know. I don’t want to go in a normal vacation. I want to go on a vacation that I can lay naked. Maybe I don’t have sex with anybody, but you, but I still want to be in that environment –

[0:30:32] D: There are more where these happen.

[0:30:33] L: Yeah. In that sexy environment with open-minded people that just are there to have a good time. I would much rather do something like that than go to a stuck-up resort, where everybody’s dressed up fancy. I want to be naked on a beach.

[0:30:48] D: Yeah. Well, it’s funny, because we’ve done cruises and all-inclusive vacations and stuff like that before. It’s like, once you go on a vacation that includes lifestyle activities, it’s hard to want to do it the other way ever again. I mean, I don’t want to pay all that money and go to where I have to keep my clothes on.

[0:31:04] SJ: Well, there was that time towards the box is open.

[0:31:06] L: But like, even if we don’t have sex with people, I just want to be there. I watch other people have sex. I mean, that’s high. I just can’t imagine our lives not around the lifestyle. I don’t know what that looks like, but I just imagine that we’re there.

[0:31:20] SJ: Awesome. You guys are also probably the most popular, most famous lifestyle influencers. How did that happen? How did you become influencers?

[0:31:30] L: On accident.

[0:31:31] D: God, that’s a scary thing to think about.

[0:31:33] L: It was an accident. I mean, I say, it’s an accident. We obviously put out a TikTok, but Dan was in the military. He’s retired now, and he was deployed. We were trying to find a way to – we’re obviously were swingers. We have sex a lot and he was deployed for several months. We were trying to find a way to keep the spark a lot, keep something sexy going between us. This was during COVID. That liquid OnlyFans really started. His thought was make an OnlyFans, upload pictures, some cute little videos. Guys will get to watch them.

[0:32:10] D: I wanted dirty videos. Not cut little videos.

[0:32:13] L: He did want dirty videos and I was not.

[0:32:14] D: It’s every guy. Like, it’s me, too.

[0:32:16] L: I did not want to do dirty videos. This is the truth. But we compromised and made the OnlyFans. But he wanted to see me interacting with the guys and the guys chatting with me. I was like, heck, if I get my nails done and they pay for it, that’s a plus. We never really intended to make a lot of money. It was never supposed to be – We both had full-time jobs and we learned quickly that you had to get people to go to your OnlyFans. Dan was bored and did some research and determined that we needed something to push people and TikTok seemed to be the way. We needed a niche on TikTok and we’re swingers.

[0:32:58] D: I was like, “That’s sexy.” Swinging is sexy. If you talk about your swinging experiences, people will be interested in that and turned on by it. That’ll probably lead them to click to your OnlyFans. It was just like, let’s see what happens.

[0:33:11] L: It wasn’t a big plan. It was just like, hey. He’s like, “Hey, make a video of you turning a pineapple up Sunday.” I think it was my earring. I can’t remember. Anyway, I did it. I think it was the third video we uploaded, it hit 11 million views. Very quickly, everyone –

[0:33:29] D: We didn’t understand TikTok. I guess, we thought, oh, if we start talking about doing swinger stuff, swingers will probably find us, but not our mom, not our family. If we have a thousand followers on TikTok.

[0:33:41] L: We’rer naive. This was right as TikTok was becoming – it was getting big. We’re not young. I mean, at the time, we were –

[0:33:47] D: We didn’t understand how it would go.

[0:33:49] L: We didn’t understand. We were naive to it. Like I said, the third video hit 11 million views and very quickly, everybody knew, our family, our friends. I freaked out and had him shut everything down, because I was – I wasn’t embarrassed to be a swinger, but I was embarrassed that people were finding out without me telling them. We’ve been doing this for a while. I loved our life. I loved our lifestyle. I had no issues. I just hated the fact that people were talking and spreading probably false information. I wanted to be the one to tell them. We did shut everything down. A few weeks later, I came to my senses and was like, well, at this point, it’s out in the bag. Everybody already knows. There’s not much we can do about it.

[0:34:33] D: Yeah, there was no putting Pandora back in the box, actually.

[0:34:35] L: No. He thought, well, that was our one chance. There’s no way in hell we’re going to make another TikTok and it go viral again. That only happens once in a lifetime. It happened again.

[0:34:47] D: And again.

[0:34:47] L: And again.

[0:34:48] D: And again.

[0:34:50] L: So, very quickly, we went viral on TikTok. He eventually came home, because again, he was overseas. I would go to TikTok live and people would ask questions. They would want to know about jealousy. Basically, all the questions that you just asked me, people wanted in-depth answers. It’s very hard to answer those questions very quickly as people are coming in and out of the live, or in a minute or two-minute TikTok. People started saying, “Hey, make a podcast. Make a podcast.” We knew nothing about podcasting, but Dan went out and did the research and we launched the podcast and took us a little while, but now it’s the number one lifestyle podcast. It’s super successful and we’re super grateful.

We’ve lost tons and tons of accounts. We get bans often. We get accounts back, get a ban. But we’re still around. That’s where we are. Now, we host parties. Our OnlyFans are still going strong. It pays for a lot more than my nails now. This is both of our full-time jobs now. That’s how we got in here.

[0:35:58] SJ: Awesome. That’s a fun journey.

[0:36:00] L: Yeah, it really is.

[0:36:01] D: We couldn’t have done it if we wanted it. If we had planned it for like, oh, we’re going to become a swinger influencer, it would never have happened. It just was one stumbling – We stumbled into a thing and then stumbled into another thing. It just all clicked and worked together. I don’t know how you would recreate that. I couldn’t tell you how to do it.

[0:36:20] SJ: For people listening that are considering starting an OnlyFans, do you think it’s a good platform to use? Do you think they –

[0:36:25] L: I think most people, women, men, think, “I’m going to make an OnlyFans and I’m going to make a lot of money, with just a little bit of effort or some effort.” The truth is, the average person on OnlyFans makes $150 a month. It takes a lot of work. We have a team of people now that run mine. We have four OnlyFan pages. It’s a labor of love. It’s taken a lot of work. You have to be comfortable with your body and you have to set clear boundaries, just like you do in the lifestyle. Since so many people don’t get a lot of return on their time and money, or time, I just think people should really consider what they’re getting themselves into.

[0:37:08] D: Yeah. We do have a full podcast episode on Should I Start OnlyFans, too? But the gist of it is what Lacy just said. The unfortunate thing that happens to a lot of OnlyFans creators is they start this thinking they’re going to get rich quick. Then a lot of people, if you start an OnlyFans, you’re putting yourself at risk if people find it, that there can be a fallout from that. What we hate to see is when people start an OnlyFans, they don’t make any money off of it, but then people find it and then they have to experience the fallout from it. It’s almost like the worst of both worlds.

At least, if you make a bunch of money and people find out, it offsets that. If you don’t make a bunch of money and people find out, that’s horrible. You really have to think about it. If you’re going to start a page, like, “Am I going to commit to this? Am I going to do the work on the backend to make sure that I get people and subscribers? Am I going to push it to a point to where I’m successful at it?” Then realizing, really, the only way to do that is putting yourself at risk of people finding the account and then having to deal with that fallout.

[0:38:05] L: You also have to live with those decisions for life. Not only do you, if you have children, your families, I mean, there’s a lot to consider with making an OnlyFans. I think for a time, it was the cool thing and everybody did it. Truth is, not a lot of people make a lot of money. That’s the truth. I think people need to realize that before they hop on the train.

[0:38:29] SJ: Yeah, I think it’s an interesting thing that it’s something where you’re not hurting anyone, but you can still be judged first.

[0:38:37] L: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[0:38:39] SJ: It’s not really fair. Then also, exactly what you said, that if you don’t make a lot of money and you’re fanned out, or it’s find, it can be tough to do it. But if you do make a lot of money, the framing can be totally different than, “Oh, my God. You’re entrepreneurs. So clever. I can’t believe you did it.”

[0:38:54] L: It depends on your – it’s like, your family. If you have a progressive family that is accepting and loves you regardless, that can be wonderful. But if you come from a background, like conservative family who is very judgmental, they might completely write you off 100%. Not only you’re losing your actual family, so there’s a lot at risk doing it. I don’t think that should happen. I think you should love your kids and love your family, regardless. Not everybody’s family is that way.

[0:39:24] D: Yes. I mean, similar to wanting to change a stigma around the lifestyle, we feel the same way about sex work, that sex work is work. If you’re not doing anything illegal and you’re not hurting anybody, then nobody should judge you, right? The truth is you can lose your family, you can lose your job. Then you might not make that much money. There is a lot of downsides. It’s just something that you really have to do your research and take some careful consideration before you start down that road.

[0:39:51] SJ: Absolutely. Guys, you mentioned that you host events. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

[0:39:57] D: Yeah. When we started the podcast and we started getting bigger on social media, we actually started a Discord server. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, Sean, but Discord is what kids nowadays use for their chat. Think AOL chat rooms, or Google chat rooms, Discord is the newer version that people are using nowadays for that. Because we kept getting banned on TikTok and Instagram and all of our front-facing social media pages, we were like, “Oh. Well, if we started a Discord server and we get all of our followers to go to Discord, when we lose a page, we can just post in Discord and say, hey, our new TikTok’s here, or our new Instagram’s here. Come follow us.”

That was the idea of that. Then we also invited other swinger influencers at the time to join us. Like, “Hey, you come onto the Discord with us. You can make your own little page on there. Then when you get banned, you can put out.” We just started this lifestyle community on Discord. At the time, we had no idea. It had a few hundred people, turn into a few thousand people. I think we’re coming up on 40,000 people at this point in time that are on there. It’s really become its own community. I mean, we have moderators. We have admins. They do town halls. They do educational classes. It really is a city, a community of non-monogamous people, or even just open-minded. I think a lot of people go there that aren’t necessarily in the lifestyle yet, but they’re curious. They want to talk to people and get answers. The Discord has really turned into its own community.

Then once that happened, these people want to gather. They want to meet each other in real life. I mean, they’ve been talking to them. I’ve been talking to each other on Discord for years now. There was this need to, well, let’s get together and let’s have an event. Let’s host somewhere. We started looking into where we could host lifestyle events. We found several locations. We go down to Secrets, which is a lifestyle resort near Orlando. Done takeovers of different lifestyle clubs across the country. We do that now almost once a month. We are either hosting, or intending some party somewhere in the US. We put that out to our listeners. We put that out to our Discord community.

Really, the outpouring of that has been pretty remarkable to see. Most of our events sell out months in advance. I don’t think we’ve even had an event that hasn’t been sold out yet. It’s really amazing to see the community come together. Seeing people in person is different than seeing them online.

[0:42:11] SJ: Absolutely. If people want to find out about these events, they can go to your Discord?

[0:42:16] D: Yeah, they can go to Discord. Really, the best thing for all of it is if you go to the website, you’ll find the Discord server. Swinger Society is our event group that we host events through. You can find a link, that’s Swinger Society on that link that I just gave you. Basically, all of our stuff, the podcast, all of our social media, as we get deleted, we put up new links and stuff.

[0:42:41] SJ: Awesome. Dan, Lacy, thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

[0:42:44] L: Thank you for having us.

[0:42:45] D: It’s been a real pleasure. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:42:47] SJ: One last thing before you go, if you want to hear more podcasts, just like this one, open your podcast app, search for Bad Girls Bible and hit that subscribe button.

[END]