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Today on the show I am talking to Dr. Laurie Mintz. She is a professor, author, speaker, and therapist. She teaches psychology of human sexuality to hundreds of undergraduate students annually and she has also authored two books, Becoming Cliterate: Why Orgasm Equality Matters — And How to Get It, along with A Tired Woman’s Guide to Passionate Sex.
Inside this episode, Laurie shares her findings on the orgasm gap that exists in relationships and why that often starts at the beginning of a sex ed program. We also dive into the importance of self-discovery and understanding what works best for you as an individual, and then communicating that to your partner. Finally, we bust some of society’s myths about sex and Laurie shares her take-home advice that women can implement in their sexual journeys today.
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So if you want to learn all of Laurie’s incredible secrets to experience orgasms during sex, don’t miss out on today’s episode!
Highlights
- Laurie’s background and how she came to teach psychology of human sexuality.
- How the orgasm gap inspired Laurie to write Becoming Cliterate.
- Understanding why there is so much ignorance about female sexual pleasure.
- The effective strategy of sex education in the Netherlands.
- First steps a woman can take to increase her “cliteracy”.
- How to incorporate yourself; a journey of self-discovery.
- Why sexual communication can really go a long way.
- Getting rid of the myth that sex should be spontaneous.
- Approaching your partner about introducing new ideas into your sex life.
- Advice for women struggling to orgasm or struggling with low sexual desire.
Tweetables
“It’s truly, truly impossible to have an orgasm while you are worrying about something.” — @DrLaurieMintz [0:17:19]
“Mindfulness is putting your mind and body in the same place.” — @DrLaurieMintz [0:17:19]
“Communication is the bedrock to make your bed rock.” — @DrLaurieMintz [0:26:17]
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Transcript
[0:01:10.6] Sean Jameson: Today, I’m talking to Dr. Laurie Mintz. She’s a professor, author, speaker, and therapist. She teaches Psychology of Human Sexuality to hundreds of undergraduate students annually and she’s also authored two books, Becoming Cliterate: Why Orgasm Equality Matters — And How to Get It, along with A Tired Woman’s Guide to Passionate Sex.
Laurie, thanks so much for coming on The Bad Girls Bible Podcast.
[0:01:37.3] Laurie Mintz: Thank you for having me on the show. I’m excited to be here.
[0:01:39.8] Sean Jameson: Great. Well, I’d love to start off with a little bit about your background and how you came to be a professor teaching psychology of human sexuality and also writing Becoming Cliterate.
[0:01:53.5] Laurie Mintz: Well, I am a psychologist and I’ve been seeing clients privately for over 30 years and also teaching for this same amount of time and over the years, as both a professor and a psychologist, I’ve developed a specialty in human sexuality after realizing quite honestly, how abysmal our training is as psychologists and sexuality.
Many people go through grad school and never even learn anything about sexuality that’s true of physicians and psychologists and when I have the opportunity to come to University of Florida, part of the reason I came here was the opportunity to teach their large enrollment Human Sexuality class and honestly, it was through teaching that class that I became aware of the orgasm gap or the fact that during heterosexual sex, women are having way fewer orgasms than men are and kind of dug into the culture of reasons for the problem and taught my students about it and I stated getting notes and things like that from my students. You know, “Thanks to this class, I’m orgasmic or my girlfriend’s orgasmic,” and I became committed to spreading that information more broadly and so wrote Becoming Cliterate.
[0:03:11.6] Sean Jameson: Awesome. Why is there so much ignorance about female sexual pleasure these days, in 2019? Whether it’s some women mistakenly kind of believing that they’re sexually broken and they can’t orgasm, or other women who think they have to do things like fake their own orgasms. I’m wondering if you have any stories that might demonstrate to the listeners why that is?
[0:03:39.3] Laurie Mintz: Well, I actually have so many sad stories but many with, you know, uplifting endings where women really learn how to orgasm or learn they’re not broken. But two of the most striking stories for me was a young woman who approached me after giving a lecture on the book topic, Becoming Cliterate, and she had tears in her eyes and she said, “Thank you so much. Until I heard you talk, I thought my vagina was broken because I’ve never had an orgasm from intercourse alone.”
Another striking story, I also was giving a talk, a public talk and a 50-year-old woman raised her hand and said, “Okay, now I know,” – she also used the word broken. She said, “Thank you, now I know I’m not broken. But how do I tell my partner I’ve been faking orgasm for the last 30 years?” Yeah, both of those, the thread between them is the same thing. The young woman and the older woman, they both brought into this cultural myth that they should orgasm the same way men do from penetration alone. Neither did as most women don’t and both thought they were broken as a result without proper knowledge and education.
[0:05:01.6] Sean Jameson: That’s pretty grim, to be honest.
[0:05:03.9] Laurie Mintz: Yes, it is. That’s why I wrote the book.
[0:05:06.7] Sean Jameson: I was hoping this podcast would be super uplifting. But it’s the truth, that’s the thing. It’s the truth of the matter and I’m just wondering, has this always been the case? I guess, let’s say in western culture where it’s just not something that’s addressed as much as it should be.
[0:05:28.5] Laurie Mintz: Yes, it’s been – well, you know, it’s been the case really throughout the ages and, you know, there’s been times it’s gotten better and times it’s gotten worse but, you know, there’s really never been a time in western culture where women’s most reliable way of reaching orgasm, clitoral stimulation, is considered equal, equally important as penetration, men’s most reliable rout to reaching orgasm and there’s a lot of reasons for that I’m happy to get into, but this issue is very old and it’s a very persistent cultural issue and I’m really hoping that the time is right now to make some changes into this problem.
[0:06:14.0] Sean Jameson: So, what’s to blame? Is there one bugbear we can heap all the blame on to or are there multiple factors?
[0:06:21.3] Laurie Mintz: I think there’s multiple factors but if you want, but there’s sort of one underlying factor and I think that that underlying factor is like, it’s deeply ingrained in our culture to value men’s sexuality and sort of devalue women’s sexuality and we do this even with our sex ed and the language that we use when we describe sex. So, you know, we use the word sex and intercourse as if they’re one and the same. Foreplay, what comes before, it sort of sets intercourse up as the most important act.
Then we have, we don’t teach sex, you know, most t- there’s abysmal sex ed where pleasure is never mentioned, the clitoris is never mentioned and then in lieu of that sex ed, you know, people are taking their education from porn and I’m not anti-porn but it is not good sex ed and it provides very unrealistic images of women’s orgasms.
[0:07:22.0] Sean Jameson: As a thought experiment, if you were in charge of the department of education, the secretary of education, and you wanted to close the orgasm gap and you had to create, I don’t know, a syllabus for people to teach, is there anything you’d put in there? What would you teach people?
[0:07:40.6] Laurie Mintz: What a fun question, what a great question.
[0:07:44.0] Sean Jameson: Besides the power trip.
[0:07:48.0] Laurie Mintz: I would actually – I’d model the sex ed as it is in the Netherlands. They do such a great job and they don’t have the same problems we have here. They don’t have the orgasm gap and they also have less sexual coercion. Because teaching people about pleasure helps them recognize negative situations more clearly but, you know, I’d start young with the right body parts labeled and, you know, communication in general and then as, you know, later, I would honestly show porn and I would discuss the difference between real sex and porn sex. I’d teach about the clitoris, I’d teach about pleasure, I’d teach about sexual communication and again, they do all of those things in the Netherlands.
[0:08:36.5] Sean Jameson: Well, it sounds like from what you’re saying, there’s additional benefits of less sexual coercion. Perhaps that also works into being into there being less maybe sexual violence as well?
[0:08:51.0] Laurie Mintz: Absolutely, yes.
[0:08:53.9] Sean Jameson: If there’s a woman listening, you know, she’s struggling, she knows her male partner is getting off orgasming every time, what are the first steps she can take to increase her cliteracy, I guess? You know, her knowledge over her own clitoris, vulva, vagina and her ability to orgasm?
[0:09:17.0] Laurie Mintz: Well, there’s several steps but the first is really, believing one is equally entitled to orgasm and pleasure. The second step is always, in any kind of therapy or self-help that’s been shown to be effective for women’s orgasms, the first step besides the attitude adjustment is always self-pleasure, masturbation, taking time to learn what one likes. Because every woman’s genital nerves are positioned a bit differently, everybody needs a little bit different type or location or pressure of stimulation to orgasm. Learning what you like, bringing yourself to orgasm and then the next step is translating that type of stimulation into partner sex; making sure you get the same type of stimulation with a partner as you do when you’re alone because there is no problem when women are alone but 95% orgasm easily in within minutes, it’s only – in lesbian sex as well, much more orgasmic. It’s only when women have sex with men do they have this orgasm problem.
[0:10:30.7] Sean Jameson: What you’re saying is, if you’re a female listener, maybe take some time and relax, go to a place where you can masturbate and just discover what you like and what brings you to orgasm?
[0:10:43.5] Laurie Mintz: Absolutely. Use your hands, a vibrator, you know, take your time, figure it out and there’s some great resources to help you do that. You know, obviously I have them in my book but there’s also a fantastic website called OMGYes. It actually shows real women, how they pleasure themselves and it really normalizes the fact that when women pleasure themselves, 99% touch their external vulva, sometimes with penetration, sometimes not. But it really normalizes that and then again, after you figure that out, the next step is, “How do I get that same type of stimulation when I’m with a partner?”
[0:11:27.1] Sean Jameson: So let’s say you can reliably then orgasm and you know what brings you to orgasm on your own, how do you incorporate that with a partner who maybe doesn’t want to talk about sex so much?
[0:11:44.8] Laurie Mintz: I’d say there’s two ways to incorporate it if we kind of look generally how to incorporate it, but then the next question is how do you tell your partner? I think there’s really two aspects if you don’t mind me answering to the question.
The first way is, in general, I think we need to change the cultural script. You know, many of us are following this standard cultural script that goes like this: “foreplay just to get her ready for intercourse. Intercourse, male ejaculation and orgasm,” sex over. Changing the cultural script to more turn taking models where the woman cums first through manual stimulation and oral sex and then intercourse or reverse that, enough fooling around at the woman intercourse will be pleasurable, not painful, intercourse and then bringing the woman to orgasm or touching your own clitoris with a vibrator or your hand during intercourse. But it’s all about making sure your clitoris gets stimulated during partner sex. You know, that all sounds well and good until you say, “What about a partner who doesn’t want to talk about it?”
[0:12:57.8] Sean Jameson: Not necessarily is totally closed off, but they’re just reluctant, you know?
[0:13:03.7] Laurie Mintz: Reluctant to change it up or they’re just a little hesitant and so what I recommend, I can tell you what I recommended to the woman who had been faking for 30 years. Because I really didn’t think it was a great idea for her to go home and say, “I’ve been faking for 30 years,” because, you know, that gets into all kinds of other issues, trust issues, communication issues and I said to her, “Why don’t you just say this: “Hey, you know, I really love you, I really love our sex life, but I’ve been reading a book or I’ve been listening to this podcast and you know, I’ve heard some really cool stuff about ways to change it up and that a lot of women really like changing it up by including more clitoral stimulation like, you know, me touching myself during intercourse or you using a vibrator with me. I’d be really interested in trying that, how about you?”
So that’s a more positive “hey, I’ve been faking for 30 years” way to say it.
[0:14:07.2] Sean Jameson: Like a ton of bricks in the face?
[0:14:09.6] Laurie Mintz: Yeah, exactly. So I mean, you know, taking matters into your own hands that there is you know, reach down and touch your own clitoris during intercourse, et cetera and to not be ashamed of that and that’s the type of stimulation that you need, potentially.
[0:14:27.9] Sean Jameson: Yeah, I think you make a great point, what you said at the start of your answer when you sort of said you can do all these things that don’t necessarily involve intercourse to ensure you close the orgasm gap. So you can do, you know, maybe try oral sex before intercourse, after intercourse if you want, manual stimulation, use a vibrator. I think all those things are great ideas and I think just people need to have a think about that and realize that again, orgasming during sex is fantastic. But if you can’t orgasm, you know, during foreplay or after intercourse is another option.
[0:15:11.1] Laurie Mintz: Yeah, I would even say that – even more strongly honestly, Sean. Because honestly, even the way that you’re saying that and it’s so deeply ingrained in all of us that it’s like, “Well, if you can orgasm during intercourse, that’s the best way, try that. But if not, there’s these other ways.” That’s like this very subtle way we all think about it. It’s like there’s orgasm hierarchy; if you can do it during intercourse, best of all, if you have to add a little clitoral stimulation during intercourse, second best if it’s totally separate, third best and the truth of the matter is that, you know, about a third of women can’t orgasm during intercourse even if they’re clitoris is being stimulated. That we really need to let go of the idea that there is one best way and consider it equally good to orgasm before, during, or after through clitoral stimulation.
[0:16:09.3] Sean Jameson: Absolutely and would you have any other advice for how a person can kind of prepare or create a situation that is conducive to reaching orgasm more easily? Whether that’s putting your – working on your state of mind, things like distressing or learning about foreplay and what types of foreplay actually help increase your desire?
[0:16:42.9] Laurie Mintz: Yeah, I think again the biggest thing is masturbate, learn what you like, and then transfer that but the other — to partner sex. But the other thing that is so common, really I appreciate you bringing this up and when you say distress, a lot of times what presents orgasm is also this whole self-conscious, self-monitoring thing that happens. Like, “Is he getting bored, do I look okay, do I look fat, do I smell funny?” and all of those things like these thoughts that’s up in your head and it’s truly, truly impossible to have an orgasm while you are worrying about something.
Having an orgasm really truly requires turning off your thinking brain and being in the moment and the best way to do that is through mindfulness, which I can explain, if you’d like.
[0:17:40.7] Sean Jameson: Oh please do, absolutely.
[0:17:42.4] Laurie Mintz: So mindfulness has gotten a lot of attention lately but it is an ancient technique and from Buddhist philosophy and it’s really been proven to help one be more connected in their lives, connected to themselves, less anxious, less depressed, less pain and better sex and all it is, is putting your mind and body in the same place. So often times their body is doing one thing and our mind is somewhere else.
You know you can be talking with a friend and you’re not even listening to them because you’re thinking about an email you need to return or something like that and that happens to so much of us during sex like our mind wanders and mindfulness is putting your mind and body in the same place. I talk to people about it. I say a way to understand the feeling is if you have ever ridden a rollercoaster and even if you don’t like it you probably know that as you are going up, up, up you are thinking things.
Like, “Why did I get on this thing? I hope I am buckled in. This is going to fun” but whatever it is, as soon as that rollercoaster goes downhill you are not thinking at all. You’re just feeling, you are just in the moment and that’s what mindfulness is, a complete immersion in the sensations of the moment and you can’t simply just do that in sex if you are not doing it in your normal daily life. It takes practice and I tell people start practicing small in daily life.
Any moment can be a mindful one, brushing your teeth; washing the dishes and the key isn’t to always have your mind and body in the same place. It is learning to recognize when your mind wanders and go, “Oops, there it goes again” and bring it back to the moment with your breath or whatever bodily sensations you use and that is what mindfulness is and it’s definitely been proven to enhance sexual experiences.
[0:19:44.7] Sean Jameson: Thanks so much for that and there’s also I think two apps that can help you with this if you want to quick start and I’d say one of them is called Cam I think and the other one is called Headspace and it sort of they branch into meditation as well?
[0:20:04.6] Laurie Mintz: Yes and there is another one called Insight Timer and that’s what they are teaching. They are teaching mindfulness via meditation and that is a great way to practice it and actually I think it’s 10 minutes twice a day has been proven to really help. So I do tell people to use those but I also say you don’t have to. You can just really practice this in your daily life as well but those apps are fantastic and I am so glad you brought them up.
[0:20:32.9] Sean Jameson: Yeah and I also like to add that maybe there is guys listening and I know as a guy myself, I am always looking for the technique, what should I do with my hands or how should I position myself and they get caught up with that idea of, “Oh I just need the right position” and they might think so much of what they can do to help their partner be in the moment or to distress or to just forget about the kids for three hours.
And so I think if guys can think along those lines as, “Well what’s the best technique I should be using?” I think it is a double whammy and I think it is going to get better results for them and for their partner.
[0:21:21.7] Laurie Mintz: Yes and I really want to emphasize that Becoming Cliterate benefits both women and men because women are suffering from fewer orgasms because of these cultural myths but right going along side that is this myth that to be a good lover you have to last long and thrust hard and that interferes with so many men’s sexual experiences and if you can let go or that your penis is the key to her orgasm, you can really enjoy and mindfully immerse in sex much better as well as yourself and just ask, ask your partner, “What do you like?” you know sexual communication really goes a long way.
[0:22:08.5] Sean Jameson: So do you have any advice for women or men listening in heterosexual relationships or in same sex relationships, any advice for them to boost the passion and desire if they found it wavering or kind of dropping over time?
[0:22:28.8] Laurie Mintz: Yeah, so that is interesting because among young women, having an orgasm is the number one sexual concern and among women in long term relationships in older women decrease desire is the number one concern. So what I would like to say to those people with those decreased desire or sort of sex just got a little boring that is that is actually quite natural that our sex drive decreases as we get older and in long term relationships.
And that there’s two things that really help with this I think. One is a lot of times people go into this almost this no-sex or very-rare-sex state because they wait to be corny to have sex like when they were younger and the key is to say no, things have changed and that is normal. It is not bad but to have what I call trists because it sounds more romantic but scheduled sexual encounters and to say like, “This is our ideal frequency and this is when we’re going have sex.”
And while it sounds romantic, it has also been really proven to improve sex lives because you have to get rid of this myths that sex should be spontaneous, which I can get into too if you like. It rarely is spontaneous and it even wasn’t even spontaneous when you thought it was, which again, I can get into if you want.
[0:23:58.7] Sean Jameson: Please.
[0:24:00.3] Laurie Mintz: Yeah but to schedule TRIS or sexual encounters make room for don’t wait to be horny to have sex. Have sex to get horny. So in terms of debunking that myth, everyone is like, “Oh sex should be spontaneous” that’s this myth but really, what we think of this spontaneous sex was well orchestrated sex like think about if you went on a date with your now partner that you’ve lost this desire for in the early stages. You know you’ve got a dress, you’ve showered up, you look good.
You sprayed perfume or put on your nicest underwear or whatever, you flirt, you touch all night, you are a little evocative and then low and behold, you have sex at the end of the night. Well that is not spontaneous, that is well orchestrated.
[0:24:50.4] Sean Jameson: Very much so.
[0:24:51.2] Laurie Mintz: Yeah and if once we get rid of the idea that it should be spontaneous, of course you are not going to be able to orchestrate it that same way with two jobs and two kids running around and in laws coming in and out or whatever. So you have to go back to orchestrating it, by planning it, by creating room in your life and your schedule for it and then mix it up. Don’t do the same old routine. You know if it has gotten boring, mix it up.
Try a different intercourse position, buy a new sex toy, use some new lubricants, role play, whatever you want to do to mix it up a little bit.
[0:25:28.2] Sean Jameson: So that’s all very good advice, Laurie, and I am just wondering, I guess I am asking the same question again, sort of but let’s say you are listening and you have all this information and you now want to get your man on board. Obviously like you said, you don’t want to confront them like a bag of bricks to the face but what’s the best way, how do you recommend a female partner saying and approaching her male partner to discuss this?
[0:25:59.1] Laurie Mintz: Yeah, I mean I think the first thing is using really good communication, timing it appropriately, owning it with I statements, sentences that start with I rather than with you. In fact, both of my books have chapters on communication because I think it is the key. You know, communication is the bed rock to make your bed rock, basically.
[0:26:22.4] Sean Jameson: I like it.
[0:26:23.1] Laurie Mintz: Yeah, so you have to talk about it and I think it’s lovely to acknowledge the positives and then say what you want to change like, “I really love you, I love our relationship and I have been feeling a little bit of lack of sex between us lately and I’d like to fix that because it is important to me. I think that sex is something that we share. It’s what makes our relationship different than roommates or business partners. It’s really important to me and I am guessing it’s important to you.”
So again, I have been listening to this podcast or reading this book or “I had this idea and believe it or not, what the sex therapist recommend is that we decide our ideal frequency and that we make time for this and I think that would help me because if I know that…” a lot of time you can say something like, “Say we do it on Wednesday nights, a lot of times I just fall in bed so exhausted but if I know that’s our plan, I’ll be thinking about it all day. I’ll be saving my energy for it and I’d really like to try that. Would you be willing to do that with me?”
[0:27:39.1] Sean Jameson: So before we finish up, I am wondering if you have just one piece of advice that you’d like to leave our listeners with to take home tonight?
[0:27:50.8] Laurie Mintz: Yeah, can I give two? Can I give one for women struggling to orgasm and one for women with low sexual desire?
[0:27:57.7] Sean Jameson: Absolutely.
[0:27:58.8] Laurie Mintz: All right, so for the women struggling to orgasm I would say masturbate- masturbate- masturbate and find what works for you and you have every right for sexual pleasure and go enjoy and figure it out and for the women who are like, “I am too tired for sex. I’ve lost my drive,” much like the old Nike commercial I’d say, “Just do it.” If it is not fun, it is not duty sex even if it starts with no desire like a car that is cold when you start it but warms up as you go along, you can treat your sexuality the same way.
[0:28:38.0] Sean Jameson: Absolutely. Laurie, this has been fantastic. I am just wondering where and how people can get in touch with you if they want to learn more about you or if they’ve got a question or if they want to find out more about your book?
[0:28:53.6] Laurie Mintz: Sure, you can go to my website, and it has links to buy both books. Both are available wherever books and ebooks are sold. It also has links to all my social media accounts. I am very active doing sex ed via social media and love to interact with readers and listeners, so that would be fantastic.
[0:29:25.1] Sean Jameson: Awesome. Laurie, thanks for coming on the show.
[0:29:27.6] Laurie Mintz: Thank you for having me on the show.
Thank you for this excellent interview Sean and Laurie! I appreciate being reminded that scheduling sexy time is important for getting desire going. Also being mindful is something so important and is something I am working on for myself.
I am single, and have had no partner sex for 20 years, but my sexuality is important to me. I am now post-menopausal and could just let my newly rekindled libido die, but I am not yet willing to do that. I take the time to acknowledge and express my sexuality even though it’s just for me. Maybe some day I’ll have a lover, but if I don’t, I’ll still have had enjoyment of my body and sexuality.